in a joint statement from a 19 opposition faction said negotiating with the regime of bashar al-assad would amount to an act of treason. to u.n. arab league envoy syria, lakhdar brahimi, is visiting damascus today in a bid to drum up support for the geneva talks. general as secretary- well as the arab league secretary-general and also me, we all believe the geneva conference is natural and is fruitful,as well as so we are hopeful that this invitation is made to iran. >> at least 66 people were killed sunday in more than a dozen bombings across iraq. the latest violence comes ahead of the iraqi prime minister's visit to washington this week. he is seeking speedier delivery of u.s. weaponry, including drones and f-16 jets.

the obama administration is asking congress to hold off on new sanctions against iran. at a white house meeting, top officials asked for the continued delay of the senate banking committee measure targeting iranian oil. the administration wants to stall the new sanctions pending the outcome of ongoing talks over iran's nuclear program. in an interview with voice of america, the lead u.s. negotiator on iran said she expects congress to ck it sanctions pause. >> we think this is a time for a pause to see if these to go shenzhen's can gain traction. congress has its prerogatives. we are hearing -- having very serious discussions. we work as partners with congress. i think they have been very as weant partners approach this because she asian we need them to continue to be effective partners to reach a successful conclusion. >> a new round of talks is set

for next month in geneva. despite the white house called but to craddick and republican lawmakers have expressed support for holding a sanctions vote by the end of the week. woman's rights activists in saudi arabia took to the road over the weekend in defiance of the nation's ban on female drivers. it was the latest action in a multiyear campaign in which saudi women openly flout the band and upload video of themselves behind the wheel. organizers say some participants were intimidated into staying home after warnings from the saudi interior ministry. inses of people marched moscow on sunday in a call for the release of activists the tainted in opposition rally last year. more than 2000 critics of russian president vladimir putin have been kept behind bars over the roles of the rally that turned violent. the colombian rebel groupfarc former u.s.o free a marine held in captivity since

june. was seizedtsutay while trekking through the colombian jungle on a solo backpacking trip. has begun a newtown, connecticut sandy hook elementary school. the intent to complete the demolition before the massacres first anniversary in december. and one of the latest deadly shootings nationwide, five people died in phoenix over the weekend after a gunman shot four members of his family then turned the gun on himself. president obama appeared at a brooklyn, new york high school friday to promote federal spending on education. >> a budget that cuts what we don't need, poses wasteful tax loopholes that don't create jobs, free up resources to invest in the things that actually do help us grow like education and scientific research and infrastructure, roads, bridges, airports.

they should not be an ideological exercise, we are just using common sense? . what is going to help us grow? what will expand our middle- class? those are the things we should be putting money into. >> internal records show north dakota has kept silent on scores of oil spill's over the past two years. according to the associated press, or dakota has reported nearly three hundred oil spills since january 20 12, but none of them publicly disclosed. it took 11 days before north dakota just recently announced that the tesoro oil spill that dumped more than 20,000 barrels of crude oil. dakota -- north dakota is the nation's second-largest oil producer. lou reed has died. a legend of the new york rock scene, he cofounded the velvet underground before going on to a prolific solo career. in hisater years, he took part in civil and environmental activism along with his wife, the musician and artist laurie

anderson. in one of his final appearances last month, he discussed the power of music to affect change. >> there's only one great occupation that can change the real rock 'n roll. [applause] i believe to the bottom of my cell, that rock 'n roll can change everything. warhol a graduate of university and i believe in the power of punk. to this day, i want to blow it up. thank you. was 71 years old. he had a liver transplant last may. those are some of the headlines. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. the latestecome

country to be the target of widespread u.s. surveillance. according to an article published today in a spanish newspaper, the nsa agency recently tracked over 60 million calls in spain and the space of a month. the disclosure comes as the delegation of german and french lawmakers were in washington today to press senior u.s. intelligenced officials for answers on allegations of widespread spying by the united states and the home countries. the german newspaper der spiegel has revealed the nsa was using the u.s. embassy in berlin to spy on germans including chancellor angela merkel. according to the magazine, merkel's mobile number had been lifted by -- listed by the nsa special collection services 2002. all of these reports have been based on leaks by edward snowden. in a moment we will be joined by journalist glenn greenwald who first broke the snowden story. first, we turn to saturday's

protest in washington. it was organized by the stop watching us coalition. jesselyn radack, a former justice department who now works for the government accountability project, read a message from edward snowden. >> we are here to remind our government officials that they are public service -- servants. this is about the unconstitutional, unethical, and immoral actions of the modern- day surveillance state, and how we all must work together to remind the government to stop them. know,bout our right to our right to associate freely, and to live in a free and open democratic society. [applause] witnessing an american moment in which ordinary people from high school to high office stand up to oppose a dangerous

trend in government. we are told what is unconstitutional is not illegal. but we will not be fooled. we have not forgotten the fourth amendment in our bill of rights prohibits government that only from searching our personal effects without a warrant, but from seizing them in the first place, and doing so in secret. [applause] holding to this principle, we declare that mass surveillance has no place in this country. [applause] it is time for reform. elections are coming and we are watching you. [applause] you, from edward snowden.

a jesselyn radack reading message from nsa whistleblower edward snowden at saturday's stop watching us rally in washington, d.c. thomas drake also spoke. she was charged with espionage after he was suspected of revealing information about the agency's warrantless wiretapping program. evidence revealed by edward snowden, we now know in great detail, the nsa does not have an honorable track record of telling the truth. while keeping track of us with our -- with out our consent. >> unacceptable! >> i agree. we only know of the wrongdoings and violations due to the disclosures of whistleblowers. these public eyes and ears,

exposing abuse of government power in the public interest. but without adequate protections, they're more likely to turn a blind eye to the privacy risk of innocence. it renders creativity new come in gender sphere and erodes our freedom served up by the potent [indiscernible] security wallf for sticking our liberties is a price we must pay to make us feel safe. i don't think so. [applause] upas fortunate i did not end an actual prison, having lived the virtual version for a number .f years for speaking truth clearly, a dangerous active

civil disobedience in these times. and now defined as a criminal act, aided and abetted [indiscernible] [applause] a free and open society needs is a digital fence around us creating virtual turnkey tierney with a bar bar surveillance not only keeping track of our comings and goings, but now increasingly wanting to know what we think and feel, the very essence of who we are and share as human beings. i fundamentally reject this premise. [applause] >> so do we! >> if we just give up our essential liberties, given what happened to me another whistleblowers like edward snowden. and so, it is time to roll back the surveillance tape.

it is time to restore the fourth amendment. it is time to repeal the patriot act. it is time to rebuild the fisa act. it is time the united states government stops watching us. >> former national security agency whistleblower, strake speaking saturday at the stop watching us rally. he was charged with espionage after he was suspected of revealing information about the agency's warrantless wiretapping program. original charges against him were dropped. former republican governor of new mexico gary johnson also addressed the crowd. >> the government has granted itself power that it does not have. [applause] we have to stand against this. forla merkel, thank you bringing attention to the world that the u.s. is monitoring the .ell phones of 35 world leaders

thank you for allowing us to recognize that 70 million cell phone conversations in france every month are being monitored. edward snowden, thank you -- [applause] thank you for bringing to the attention of the world the fact the u.s. government, the nsa is engaged in massive information gathering. 125 billion cell phone conversations a month. judge's granting legal authority 113the nsa to monitor million verizon users. this is not due process. >> former republican governor of new mexico gary johnson at the stop watching us rally on saturday. when we come back, journalist glenn greenwald, who originally reported the leaks of edward snowden.

we will be back in a moment. ♪ [music break]

written and sung by lou reed, he died sunday the age of 71. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. talk more about the latest national security agency revelations we are joined by glenn greenwald, the journalist who first broke the story about

edward snowden. the spanish newspaper el mundo earlier today published an article cowritten by greenwald revealing the nsa recently tracked over 60 million calls in spain in the space of a month. for the past year he is been a columnist at the guardian newspaper. he is leaving the paper this week to join the new media venture foundered -- funded by ebay founder multibillionaire pierre omidyar. glenn greenwald joins us by video stream from his home in brazil. welcome. let's start off with the latest news from spain to germany. there is a series of reports that have appeared in several european countries over the past two weeks or so, as you indicated. there's a report this morning in el mundo which i co-authored, reporting the nsa in december 2012: -- collected the data on 60 million telephone calls made to u.s. [indiscernible]

there was an article in the paris daily that i also co- authored that indicated the nsa had collected 70 million telephone calls and store them in their system to be monitored and analyzed. or have been a series of reports in germany really over the past three months, mostly co-authored by laura poitras about systematic spying on the people of germany and more recently, targeting the german chancellor angela merkel that have caused a very significant political controversy and underscoring the principal point of what these stories do, which is that it really is the goal of the nsa to eliminate privacy worldwide by ensuring all forms of human life, communication are subject to its ever-growing surveillance. >> talk about how the german

spying work. i mean, for germans -- angela xfone is very famous. they're phone she uses all sessions of parliament. there have been whole pieces written about her phone well before this information came out. can you explain? >> the nsa uses different techniques. one of the main techniques that it uses as to her spiegel reported is through a consulate in berlin, the nsa since people who pretend to be the elements are there to engage in mass surveillance on the german population as well as target the individual cell phone calls a such ast politicians the chancellor. we did a similar report in of theon the targeting president, the same as happened in mexico were but the current and former mexican presidents were targeted with similar forms of surveillance.

this is often done through the way people pretend to be diplomats stationed there for what pretends to be a consulate but really is and nsa outpost. inexploits its positioning the nation capital under diplomatic treaties to target the population and a leading democratically elected leaders with very invasive surveillance. itself, thesy placement, this massive embassy building the u.s. moved into in 2008? >> right. the der spiegel report is using a document that demonstrates that embassy is essentially the outpost for nsa spying. it is quite common for the nsa to do in capitals, and the allies mostly aligned with the u.s. it undermines trust between these allies and the american government. it also makes a mockerout of diplomatic treaties, which oflly do bar the expectation

diplomatic relations, diplomatic buildings, and other forms of diplomacy as a means to engage in surveillance while focusing democratically elected leaders and citizens. >> on friday, angela merkel demanded the u.s. strike a no spying agreement with berlin and paris by the end of the year, singh alleged espionage against two of washington's closest eu allies had to be stopped. most important thing is to find a basis for the future in which we can operate. as i said today, trust needs to be rebuilt, which implies trust that has been severely shaken. members of the european union shared those thoughts. we know we have such important tasks in the world we can only master together. we are responsible for mutual security. obviously, words will not be sufficient. true change is necessary. >> that was angela merkel on the

-- the german chancellor. glenn greenwald, you mentioned spying on democratically elected leaders. she was being spied on even before she was chancellor. but exactly. and the current mexican president was as well. the united states government has created a spying system and this is the picture that really emerges from all of the documents that is accessed institutionally with identifying any kinds of communication that it cannot intrude and then developing technologies in order to invade them. without any thought as to the underlying rationale, weighing of benefits and cause -- cost. they decide for its own sake to me sure it has the full understanding of what everyone in the world is thinking and doing in choosing, and deciding. that is really a very consequential -- and i think

menacing -- development for the world and for the idea of individual privacy on the internet and through telephones and it is up to the world, i think, to decide what should be done in light of these revelations. >> white house press secretary jay carney on friday was questioned about nsa spying of the german chancellor. >> i want to follow up on your comment in yesterday's briefing about how the u.s. is not and will not monitor german chancellor angela merkel's communications. objectedn berlin have to that answer because you have not said whether they been monitored in the past. has the u.s. monitor the chancellor's calls in the past? >> we will not comment on every possibility. as i mentioned yesterday, the president spoke with chancellor merkel, reassured her the u.s. is not and will not monitor the chancellor's communications. >> glenn greenwald, your

response? >> remember all of the stories we are reporting are based on the nsa's own internal documents, the claim the nsa has fourto itself and to its closest allies when it comes to surveillance programs, which is the u.k., canada, new zealand, and australia. there'sat this point really nobody rational who doubts the veracity of any of these reports. they have proven to be true in every single case. when the documents group or when other evidence proves that chancellor merkel was targeted with surveillance, it is obviously the case that she was. jay carney's refusal to deny that she was such a target after inking a point to say she no longer will be in the future and is not right this very second come i think, obviously, demonstrates that. the is the difficulty for government of the u.s. there's no way to discredit the

reporting we are doing precisely because the reporting we're doing is based on the claims the nsa itself makes in no documents. , chairman peter king of the house subcommittee on counterterrorism and intelligence speaking on "meet the press." >> stop apologizing, stopping defensive. the reality is, the nsa has saved thousands of lives, not just in the u.s. but in france and germany and throughout europe. the french are some to talk. they carried out spying operations on the u.s. as first germany, that is where the hamburg plot began which led to 9/11. they've had dealings with iran and iraq and north korea. we're not doing this for the fun of it. this is to gather valuable intelligence which helps not just us, but also europeans. >> that was commerce number peter king who may well be running for president of the u.s. glenn greenwald? our democratic,

partisans at all embarrassed by the fact the most vocal proponents of the nsa spying program, aside from people like diane feinstein, are the very republicans who may be spent years to writing as these radicals and extremists, people like peter king or john boehner are michele bachmann, all of whom had very vigorously defended president obama's spying program -- does that give them any positive all about what the real value or purpose of these spying programs are? what peter king is essentially telling the world as they ought to be grateful that the united states government is invading the privacy of their citizens by the millions and intercepting the communications data. i think that messages resonating quite poorly around the world. this is not 1982 where the u.s. can simply dictate and realistically to the rest of the world what it ought to be grateful for and have the rest of the world except it with

reverence. it is much different world. i think peter king lives in the age that no longer really exists. look, this is the claim that uses power faction whenever they engage in mass surveillance, which is they try to tell the population -- don't worry, we're doing this because we love you and want to protect you. this is for your own good. in every single case when powerful sanctions are allowed without accountability, it is radically abused. that is what makes it so dangerous. it is not surprising people like peter king are finding common cause with people like diane feinstein or even nancy pelosi, leaders from both political parties to defend these systems because they do invest those in power with extreme amounts of authority to do all sorts of things that people in power always wanted to. >> diane feinstein in fact is introducing legislation that would codify the nsa spying that

would grant the nsa explicit authority to gather records, listing the numbers, duration, and time of all u.s. telephone calls. >> right. is there anything more indicative of just how broken washington is that the person who leads the senate intelligence committee, which is a committee created in the wake of the findings of the church committee in the mid-1870s that was intended to serve as a restraint and check what the intelligence committee does, is the greatest loyalist and the most servile devotee of protecting and shielding the authority of that community named diane feinstein? it just shows what a complete joke and travesty the idea of congressional oversight has actually become and what the diane feinstein's and the john boehner's of the world are doing right this very minute is they know the public is outraged by these revelations, that they

need to be placated symbolically. what they're trying to do to devise legislation that would be very orwellian tactic will slap the word reform on it and say it is designed to real in some of the abuses of the nsa, but are really designed to let the nsa continue to do exactly what they been doing. in many cases, even strengthen the nsa further. these are the people who with the together white house, the ability of the nsa to continue to spy on americans, collect our phone bills showing the telephone calls we make and receive. there's a coalition of outsiders in washington on the right and left who are working to undermine that, but the tactics of the nsa loyalist like diane feinstein is to produce legislation they can lead people to believe it is reform when in reality it is the opposite. >> on thursday in an interview, the nsa director, general keith alexander, call for newspapers

to stop reporting on its secret surveillance. thatthink it is wrong newspaper reporters have all these documents, 50,000 or whatever they have, and are selling them and giving them out as if -- it just doesn't make sense. we ought to come up with the way of stopping it. i don't know how to do it. that is more of the courts and policymakers but from my perspective, it is wrong to allow this to go on. >> glenn greenwald, that was keith alexander. >> first of all, what general alexander said there -- remember, he is probably the most powerful military official in the u.s. i think more or less everyone agrees on that. you didn't actually say newspapers should stop publishing, he said something more pernicious. he said "we," inning the government, should come up with ways to stop them from continuing to report. the courts in commerce or china figure out those ways. i cannot imagine in a minimally

free country how courts and congress can get together and stop journalist from reporting these new stories the way that general alexander is calling for something to be done. an extraordinarily crpy and authoritarian expression of sentiment, i don't know what is. to think this is the person who democratic loyalists and republican authoritarians argue should be interested with this massive suspicionless spying system is stunning. who would ever trust anyone, let alone someone who has that instinct for the government to silence journalists with running that kind of a system? he also said something interesting and disturbing. easy starless as "selling documents." selling top-secret documents is what he accused journalists of his espionage, treason. so is that with the government

of the united states, is that the official view of what is reporting is, that we are selling top-secret documents? that didn't just come out of the air. that phraseology. i think it is extremely disturbing interview that he gave that requires a lot more attention. should security officials like james clapper, who lied before congress when they asked if he was spying on americans and said, no, and afterward said he doesn't know what possessed him to lie -- he didn't use the word lie there. shld they be charged with perjury? >> of cores. it is not technically perjury because they believe the committee chairman, before which he appeared, did not actually swear him and force him to take an oath. this is an informal practice that is very bad in washington when top officials testify

before the senate, they don't require them often to take an oath because somehow it is insulting to their integrity or something to asked them to do it. whether you take it or not i'm it is a felony under the u.s. code to lie to the american congress. there were officials prosecuted under that statute is part of the iran-contra scandal, although many of them were ultimately pardoned. convicted.ayers were for him to go to the senate and lie to their faces and denied exactly nsa is doing that which our reporting proved is nsa was in fact doing, clearly a crime and of course he should be prosecuted and would be prosecuted if we lived under anything resume link the rule of law where everyone is held in treated equally under the law regardless of position. of course we don't have that kind of system, which is why no wall street executives have been

prosecuted or top-level is officials have been prosecuted or james clapper. not only has james clapper not been prosecuted, he hasn't even lost his job. he is still the director of national intelligence many months after his lie was revealed, because there is no accountability for the top-level people in washington. the final thing to say about that, there are all kinds of american journalist who love to go on television and accuse edward snowden of committing all these horrible crimes, but are so brave when it comes to claiming [indiscernible] no one is ever gone on television said, james clapper committed crimes and he ought to be prosecuted. ,he question you just asked none of the reporters were american journalist who fancy themselves as aggressive top reporters would ever dare utter the idea that james clapper ought to be arrested or

prosecuted for the crimes he committed because they are there to serve those interests and not to be a challenger or adversarial. interesting opinions are changing, meaning the pundits and writers are changing their views like richard cohen of "the washington post" whose latest be says -- "as time has proved my judgments were just plain wrong." i want you to respond to that and also the significance of this weakens protest. i daresay what has changed is the massive grassroots response from the whether it is in the streets or just people being horrified at what is taking place, but the significance of the rally that took place on saturday that edward snowden sent a message to? richard: -- look,

richardcohen oath is one of the most trite american columnist. the facts that have emerged are to theletely contrary script from which the washington journalists were reading, all in unison at the very beginning, that he just couldn't any longer maintain that with a straight face. literally, i went back when i was writing my book and went back and within 24 to 48 hours of edward snowden's identity being revealed by our article on june 10 in "the guardian," countless pundits and reporters democratic party loyalists who did another first thing about snowden were all singing the same song, which is that he was a fame seeking narcissist. this was the cliché they all invoked. in wanted to damage the u.s. the facts were so complete contrary to that. he refused every single

television interview once he revealed himself because he wanted to make sure the focus data with from him personally and state on the substance of the nsa revelation. as richard cohen finally pointed out, he could have done all sorts of things with the material that he possessed if you wanted to harm the u.s. or was interested in enriching himself. he could have sold it to foreign intelligence services for millions of dollars. you could have passed it to enemy governments. he did none of that. entire life,his sacrifices liberty in order to inform the world about what was being done to their privacy. the clichés they were all given in which they mindlessly recited could not have been further from the truth. kudos to richard cohen for finally acknowledging and admitting that. as far as the rally is concerned, i think there was an attempt early on to say people in general don't really care about privacy, don't care about civil liberties. i've been hearing this for the last seven or eight years as i have made up my principal focus.

the factor we are five months later and these revelations are every bit as consequential and riveting people around the world as they were five months ago, it just proves how true that is. the fact there is a rally of people who are disregarding the sort of standard partisan theirxes and realizing enemies are the people in government from both political parties who believe their powers should be exercised in secret and with no accountability, really is a testament to how much privacy is fired around the world. human beings understand instantly why the private realm is a crucial. award snowden is considered hero in calais nations around the world. it is true there is an authoritarian stream in america's political culture that has anybody who defies government of 40 -- authority and expose items that should be kept secret is an evil and bad person, but this is an

increasingly marginalized few. i think you see people using the internet for everything they do .ore increasingly the surveillance system which they have no control and didn't know about until four months ago [indiscernible] , isn'tn greenwald something not talked about or written about as much, extremely threatening to these governments -- for example, what you exposed in brazil working with "global," the spying. the most media focused on the president refused to come to a state dinner in protest this month. petrobras goeson to bigger point that since the cold war is over, that a lot of u.s. intelligence is used to spy for corporations and the significance of this, of what the nsa is doing? >> it is a really important point. the spying on the individual leaders gets a lot of attention in part because those individual

leaders don't get truly angry until it is revealed that they themselves are being spied on. that is just the nature political leaders. the bulk of the reporting is been about two things in these other countries. number one, the mass indiscriminate spying on the population. secondly, what you just referenced, the clearly economic espionage. that's significant for two reasons. number one, the us government has gone around telling the onld from president obama down from the beginning of the stories that this spying is necessary and justified to protect the american people from to preservend national security. yet so much of the reporting we have done is proven that to be in after life. there spying on petrobras, spying on the brazilian ministry and the canadian intelligence service. we have reported on extreme

levels of surveillance at the organization of american states were economic conferences in latin america designed to negotiate economic accords between countries will stop and so what it is really doing is making it clear the u.s. government claims to the world cannot be trusted. when president obama opens his mouth and justifies these program, everyone knows what comes out of his mouth is false. i think that is the job of journalists hold people accountable that way, but it also has fears repercussions for how a mac and politicians are perceived in the world and what the role of the u.s. government is in the world. the other aspect to it is that the u.s. government has been vocally running around for years of engaging in surveillance and you spend much for economic advantage. industrial advantage. in these revelations prove the u.s. is doing exactly the same thing. if you reveal to populations around the world that their calls are being spied on by the millions, they will first wonder -- when it becomes apparent

u.s. government is doing this for economic advantage, they start to feel personally implicated, like they're being robbed. petrobras is incredibly important company for brazil. if funds a lot of the social programs. it is state-owned. it is a source of national pride. people understand the reason there spying on petrobras or economic conferences is a because they think they are terrorists or other bad people inside those institutions, but because the u.s. government once did economic -- new economic data. onmembers of the senate put edward snowden mask. we don't have much time and i want to turn, glenn greenwald country latest venture. you're leaving "the guardian" this week where you been a columnist and blogger, and you are beginning to start a new

venture with the ebay founder pierre omidyar. tell us what you're doing. mean, the venture is still something we are shaping and figuring out how it's going to work. him toly, the choice for work with us and us to work with him -- and i mean jeremy scahill, who started with democracy now! and has been a long time national security correspondent for " the nation," from berlin,tras gives people a strong sense of the kind of journalism we intend to embolden. it is very unusual i think for people who are dissenting political figures were journalists [indiscernible] this is about creating a well- funded [indiscernible] design not just to tolerate the

kind of journalism, but in able it and protect it and strengthen it and empower it. and the people we are going to select are all people who take the same view adversarial journalism, that it is about holding the most powerful factions accountable without threat of repercussions from the government or corporate factions. i think it is quite a be a very formidable force in shaping how journalism is understood and practiced. >> pierre omidyar said he's going to put something like $250 million into your venture. at first he was possibly going to buy "the washington post." have you talk to pierre omidyar? are you concerned, he is the founder of ebay, ebay owns paypal which cut off support for wikileaks. what kind of discussions have you had around that, which certainly would be relevant to what you want to do in your deep concerns about control? the very first conversation or second conversation i had with him, i asked him about that issue.

he told me that at the time, and this is absolutely true, he was not the ceo of ebay and was not involved in management or paypal, and he actually disagreed with that decision. editorialr he owned eyes against the government's funding.n wikileaks' time i had people say, look the people running the institution are going to force you into the orifice. i say, i would never go anywhere or staying where that is anyway trying to interfere with my editorial independence and freedom. that is absolutely true this adventure. if you look at pierre omidyar's record, especially the past five months, he has been incredibly supportive of the nsa reporting we have doing.

he would not start a new business in order to make money. you would only start a new business for some goal, some civic minded goal. [indiscernible] i am completely convinced of the passion he has behind the vision and his willingness to adhere to it. at the end of the day, [indiscernible] >> i want to thank people for bearing with us. the audio is not so great today. you have engaged in this interesting conversation with l ,"ller of "the new york times the debate between the two of you, the former executive editor of "the times," he began by writing --

can you comment on that and where you're going with your new venture? >> sure. ,"is came out of a "new yorker piece. [indiscernible]

he and i had an e-mail exchange and he offered, quite generously, to have a debate and publish it in his column. i think it really reflects [indiscernible] is understood,sm the traditional "new york times" models that is in some was help and the kindalism of journalism that we intend to do, which is more passionate [indiscernible] >> thank you, glenn greenwald, for being with us. leaving "the guardian" this week

and going to start his new venture with pierre omidyar, the founder of ebay, and new news trasnization with laura poi and jeremy scahill. we will have a link to all of your latest articles at democracynow.org. when we come back, the biggest deal, settlement, with the largest bank. stay with us. ♪ [music break]

>> lou reed died on sunday at the age of 71. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. we turn to what is being touted as the biggest banking settlement in u.s. history. the banking giant jpmorgan is that the pair record $13 billion fine to sett investigations into its mortgage backed securities. five years ago, the banks risky behavior helped trigger the

financial meltdown, including manipulating mortgages and sending millions of americans in the bankruptcy or foreclosure. jpmorgan called its latest settlement in important step. however, many in the media have per trade the deal as unfair to the bank. "the wall street journal" describes it as the government confiscating half of jpmorgan's and warnings to appease left- wing populist allies of the obama administration. meanwhile, "the new york post" are treated as a kind of bank robbery, reading a headline -- running a headline that read -- we have the author of the book "econned: how unenlightened self interest undermined democracy and corrupted capitalism." , welcome to democracy now! what is your assessment of the settlement? amount that is going to be paid is still a bit influx, but only $3 billion of that will

be a fine. the overwhelming majority is for contract violations where the various banks, but jpmorgan itself and the two banks that acquired bear stearns and washington mutual, did what amounted to promise investors they were going to get steak and instead it sold them hamburger. many times hamburg or that was beginning to turn green. so these claims are actually contract claims that are the liability somewhere in the liability of dutch i'm sorry, $100 billion to 200 billion dollars getting rid of. that portion of the settlement will only be around -- they're getting out of that heart. it is screaming bargain. >> jamie diamond called eric holder? >> yes, because apparently they're still in play there may be a criminal prosecution of the bank, not as individuals. think the department of justice in california have

been developing a cases 2007 and it was released in reuters i think on monday a my the filing, ok's on tuesday -- they might be filing a criminal case on tuesday. it looked like it was a criminal suit that suddenly led to the desire. >> should jamie dimon be indicted? >> we don't know enough to know anything. i personally think you should be indicted on the london whale. i said that a long time ago. we just don't know enough in this case what the facts are. if they do.now you may just settle that one. >> where will the money come from, shareholders, ceo bonuses? will jamie dimon loose his job? this nowhave got of the number has crept up because the federal housing finance agency, they have been negotiating separately. their deal went from $4 billion to five $.1 billion.

in any event, of that total, $4 billion of that isn't even going to be in cash. $4 billion of it will be in the form of homeowner release. that can include things like short sales on securities that they sold, things the bank doesn't even own. we saw in the national border settlement last year that most of that has been things that really haven't involved in the real damage to the banks. the portion that is paying for the hamburger instead of steak part is going to be tax- deductible and it looks like another fight is going on between the department of justice and jpmorgan that they may be able to put $1.1 million of that total amount to the fdic. the actual number that jpmorgan will wind up paying is vastly smaller than the number being bandied about. >> yves smith, we democracynow.org will continue this conversation online and post it on. that does it for our show.

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tavis: good evening. from los angeles, i am tavis smiley. tonight a conversation with john nichols about his new book "dollarocracy." he details about how elections are being controlled by a small group of billionaires and corporations, to the detriment of the rest of us. join us in our conversation with john nichols, coming up right now.

>> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. nots: just in case you may think big money dominates elections, consider this. the last election was the first $10 billion election in the history of the nation. washington correspondent john nichols has written a critique of our current practices called "dollarocracy." john, thanks for your work and

it is an honor to be -- to have you on this program. beat romney, or did money beat money? >> money beat money. we love the happy story, but the fact of the matter is that barack obama and his supporters raised about $1.2 billion and mid romney raised about 1.3 billion dollars. it was big money versus eight money. i would argue that obama will one on the basis of his own strength. tavis: let me go forward and then we will go back. the supreme court was forced to make a decision that depending on where you stand, perhaps it was a ruling that would completely gut what is left of campaign finance. if the decision goes in the way many people think it will go --

>> it is good you raise that question. allowingentially wealthy people to give more than ever to candidates. mccutchen would allow those wealthy people in a public way to give more money. but the fact that they are giving that money now through so-called independent expenditures, what the bill would do is systematized and make it more regimented. the truth of the matter is, the barn door is already open. if the mccutchen ruling comes down, it will be that much easier for them to do it, but we should not lie to ourselves. our politicians are dominated by the dollar. it is really just a cleanup after the fight. we lost the fight in citizens united, all the way back to the 1970s. until we begin to address the

fundamental issue, that money , weing into our pockets lose these fights because money is well organized. that is the simple reality. if you have a great deal of wealth, you have the ability to make it all work well. earlyn the late 1960s, 1970s, civil rights and voting rights were really starting to expand. vote for a system that was little more fair and just. pump the money into lobbying and politics and you begin to knock down the barriers to money and politics. year processa 40 in this country of money moving into politics. from theill dominates presidential level down to the local city council level. we end up in a situation, you talk about an issue like poverty, gets pushed aside.